This document is composed of various postings to alt.support.shyness and other sources on the subjects of romantic signals and flirtation. Shy people tend to be bad at understanding signals and using flirtation.
For a list of signals, see Reading Women's Signals.
From: anomalous@nowhere.com
Subject: Re: Lone Wolf
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:16:03 GMT
In article <4rebh7$67f@news.pc.centuryinter.net>,
Katherine Randolph Actually, I heard on some TV documentary that two-thirds of the time,
it is the woman who takes the lead in initiating contact. Of course,
she doesn't do it directly; she uses subtle indirect signals of romantic
interest. The documentary said that they had recorded 52 distinct female
solicitation behavious, from observing 200 women.
They showed an example scenario, with a man and a woman in a bar,
strangers, each with their groups of friends, about 30 feet apart, but
noticing each other. The woman took the lead and sent out the following
signals:
At this point, the man got up and went over and talked to her. Even though
she took the lead, every one of the signals was safely ambiguous, so there
was little risk on her part. All that she wanted to do was to send the
critical number of signals to trigger the guy into action. He is the one
who takes the risk. After the guy goes up and talks to her, she still gets
to decide how to react. She can reject him on the spot with no loss of
face. Quite a scam, hey! ;-)
If you want a good indication that she is interested in you, look for some
of these signals. Of course, some women are so flirtatious that they send
out signals even if they aren't really interested. But, if you don't
receive any of these signals (or others like them), and given that you are
shy, then it's going to be a hard sell.
From: praetzel@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel) In article <blah>anomalous@nowhere.com writes:
That is mentioned in anthropology books as well as some PBS shows I've
seen. Women actually initiate the first 3 items according to Helen Fisher
in her book. The first being attraction and physical contact and I forgot
the 3rd. She also pointed out that guys tended to remember none of these
milestones; merely the ones that they did later. The women did remember
exactly what they had to do to get the guys attention!
A lot of male "I'm available" non-verbal communication is the same sort
of thing. Big hearty laughs; don't stir your drink with a small flick of
the wrist when you can get your whole body into the act. Take up space;
look important but not threatening.
Funny thing that. If you are in a position where you only get to pick
between the guys who you attract; isn't it better to attract a lot of guys?
I could swear that some of this has to go the other way; but too many women
keep posting that they would never react to an attractive guy; never show
any overt interest.
There are always many other ways to attract someone; rather than the
bar-room/stranger pickup. It is just that this one is pretty common for
humans and other animals.
One way that women have said that they meet men is thru their current
boyfriend. I can't think of how that would never ever work for shy people
or people in areas of study which effectively have no women. Even if you're
like me and you don't drink, don't like smokey environments and have no love
for physical bashing "sports"; then that gives you no way to relate to
ordinary guys. Kind of like the smalltalk syndrome. I'll wager that
plenty of guys keep their sanity thru their jock sports; being able to let
off steam and get away from all women. But the shy ones don't need any more
of that since they have it and the smalltalk in spades.
From: pepke@scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) That's interesting. I'm seeing two views here:
1) 90210 portrays effective means for men to interact sexually with
women. You know what? Both views are correct.
I wouldn't recommend watching TV shows as a guide to reality, but I
personally have done a lot of observation of people in life. I saw a lot of
stuff that literally turned my stomach. It took me a long time before I was
able to suppress my gorge enough to try it. When I was finally able to do
so, I found it highly effective.
From: pepke@scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) In article <31FEC760.7BB2@flash.net>, Scott <redjan@flash.net> wrote:
It all depends on what you want. If you do this, don't be surprised if
what you get are female friends who don't want anything romantic because
they don't want to ruin the friendship.
In my experience, the most effective and safest strategy goes something
like this:
1) Flirt like hell immediately after meeting the person. Start within
the first five seconds.
2) After a couple of hours, or on the second meeting, back off on the
flirtation and work on a friendship.
3) If that goes well, rekindle the flirtation.
Most people start with step 2, and that's usually a mistake in my
experience.
From: pepke@scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) In article <322b0d9f.88539@NEWS.SUPERLINK.NET>, cavalama@superlink.net
(Cavalamar the Lost) wrote:
I haven't seen anything more detailed, unfortunately. There are some
things I have noticed, though:
Good signs: Bad signs: Maybe you could describe the kind of failure that you run into. At what
point does the process, as you envision it, break down?
Probably you can pick up on it, but you're just overcautious.
Relax. You've made enormous progress. You probably should consider
changing your long name.
In terms of the formation of long-term relationships, it's far better to
get false negatives than false positives.
Article 136095 of alt.romance: On 7 Oct 1996 18:38:21 GMT, "Debora C. Carter" <dccarter@nowhere.org>
wrote:
'scuse me for interrupting...
Sounds like a double-edged sword. Unfortunately, some people are inept
in the ways of romance. Others are also direct by nature. Would you
suggest that these people be themselves? I don't mean that to
confrontational, it's an honest question.
I agree with the "showing" part wholeheartedly. What I don't understand
is that since there's obviously a breakdown in communication (He doesn't
know what you want, and you don't know why he won't "show" you and/or stop
talking about his feelings), why not discuss it?
There's definitely such a thing as "too much, too soon", but a guy's
going to have to say something SOMETIME.
I think I understand where you're coming from. I just have to feel sorry
for the guy because he's losing a race he doesn't even know he's in.
LJBF can mean quite a few things. While I'm sure it's possible that it
can mean what you said (as it does for you in your situation), I think it
would be very detrimental for men as a whole to cling to that belief. I
have visions of poor guys slamming their heads into the same brick wall over
and over because they think "All I have to do is charm her". Of course this
works with the genders reversed as well ( I would think).
I wonder what would happen if you told you friend "Let's just be friends
while you figure out how to charm me again, as I work on forgetting how you
scared me off with your directness."
That would be pretty interesting, wouldn't it?
Lovers talk too ;)
mine might have been a penny.....
Article 136337 of alt.romance: In <53bimt$arb@newstand.syr.edu> "Debora C. Carter"
Perfect EXAMPLE of what unfortunately happens to men who are too
DIRECT...
No that's what YOU want; he has been QUITE direct in what he WANTS....
INDIRECT and subtle "game playing": is often the key in creating
chemistry. THIS IS what *men learn* and yet then some women will say be
direct and don't play games ...(that's why when women say this you can't
listen to them)
Yep if you blow the timing and the "cat is let out of the bag" its much
harder to get back where you were before..
Again the chemistry and "indirectness" must be done right its hard to get
back into the game later unfotunately...
Good Analysis on why being straightforward and Direct is NOT in your
interest and being indirect IS ....(at least when dealing with women)
Article 136342 of alt.romance: I actually would prefer if a guy came out and told me if he had feelings
for me. I'm actually pretty poor at picking up signals. And i have a lot of
guys for friends. But unless they came out and told me they'd like to be
more than friends, I would probably never know.
Guess I'm just a little slow on the hints...
Article 136457 of alt.romance: In article <53jj8g$ho3@gaia.ns.utk.edu>, %%spam repellent: remove this
prefix%%kennel@msr.epm.ornl.gov wrote:
Yeah, this is usually true.
Don't be too hard on Debora. There are few enough women who are willing
to be even a little bit honest about this. You may not like the way human
sexuality works, but it isn't politic to try to shame people into lying
about it.
From: Matthew <matthew@inlink.com> Darla wrote:
Yes. The signals consist of the inability to speak correctly, saying
stupid things when the words DO come out, looking WAY uncomfortable and
then -- we do it all over again for the sake of the feelings we get
being around you. Sounds rather masochistic, I know, but...you asked.
Also, I tend to look at women I like in the eyes more. I wish there
really were some other signals that were more down-to-earth, but I think
it's really a hit-and-miss thing for us. Maybe others will respond more
favorably.
From: Darla J <DarlaJ@mindlink.bc.ca> jackalope.@greatbasin.net (Mike Long) wrote:
I'll keep an eye out for creepy lurkers. ;)
It truly saddens me that there are people on this earth that would even
think of saying anything so negative & cruel to someone who has risked
vulnerability and reached out to them. I'll tell you right now, she wasn't
good enough for you.
Hmmmm... what about the "reverse concept" that shy guys will only talk to
women they're _not_ interested in? Possibly if I knew the _degree_ of
shyness (in advance), he might be easier to read. I like your idea of
asking around about the guy's shyness habits. It's a relatively innocuous
question that even an aquaintance could answer.
This is good. I can work with this.
If she's shy, she'll make herself "annoyingly visible", even though she
may not say anything (deja vu). Once initial contact is made, the standard
signals are - standing/sitting closer than "usual"; blushing; eye contact
(or embarrassed, averted eyes); touching your arm (if she touches your chest
in _any_ way, you can have no doubt of her interest); a warm smile; hanging
around you; and, of course, flirting (innuendo, double entendres, etc.). If
you can swing it, the only way that has ever really worked for me is to
"open" yourself and try to feel her energy. This consists of being within 6
feet of her, in a situation where neither of you are talking (listening to
someone else talk, for example) and then concentrate on her presence (not on
what you think she's thinking about you). You should feel warmth around
your chest, if she's also thinking of you. Sounds weird, but it's super
cool when it works.
From: M. M. <mm@ionline.net> I'll explain this a bit further... women are very sensitive to a guy's
non-verbal signals; they don't want to be _told_ things, they want to be
_shown_. They don't want you to say you like them, they want you to flirt
with them and touch them and put your arm around them, etc. So what happens
is, if you're simply friendly with someone for months, then all of a sudden
admit that you've secretly wanted to go out with them all this time, they'll
think you're mental. Seriously. (unless they had a BF or some other
exception)
Also, a lot of shy people think that they have to get to know someone for
a while before asking them out. The opposite is actually true - you should
get their phone # either the first time you meet her or soon after, and ask
to spend time with her soon after meeting as well. This way it keeps them
curious enough to want to spend more time with you. If you wait for a few
months, they'll think "what a dull guy, he doesn't flirt or anything" and
then turn you down when you do ask.
Yup. Freakishly weird, ain't it?
Maybe... you don't have to use those exact words, you can say "Would you
like to go to X with me on Friday?" or "Let's go to X on Friday!"
I think for me, when I'm in my "neutral" mode my face goes into a kind of
frown, though I'm not down or anything... Others look down or hunch over,
or just have no light in their eyes.
(unknown source)
This is a really simple strategy by Michelle Wild [an extraordinarily
attractive porn star]. If you're consistent and persistent with this
strategy, this could yield you a lot of beautiful women. It'll take a long
time though, but then again, it requires almost no effort on your part:)
Here's what you do. You see a girl you like, but for some reason
can't do an approach (you don't have the time, or maybe the guts, or the
situation disallows it etc), at least do this - say "Hi". Keep enough
eye-contact to get a confused "Hi" in return, then continue with what you
were doing (walking, working etc). Maybe you'll never see her again. But
if you do (oh joy and behold!:) - say "Hi" again. Then continue with
what you were doing (basically, ignoring her:). And so on, and so on.
After the first three "Hi's" the girl is still wondering, if or how she
is supposed to know you. After the fifth "Hi" she is already wondering,
how come you never actually talk to her. After the tenth "Hi" she can't
understand, how come you never even approach her. After the twentieth
"Hi" she is so confused and intrigued about you that she just can't stand
it anymore and will approach YOU instead. She'll try to find out how the
two of you know, and why you never talk to her, or why you never even
approach her, but you still keep saying "Hi", is there something wrong
with her etc - be very vague and mysterious about it in your answers
(after all, you don't have much to tell anyway:). Now however, you're
talking to an absolutely gorgeous girl (remember, you almost didn't even
have the guts to say "Hi" to her:), who is so intrigued about you the
she approached you - make the best of it:) - seduction tip.
[Craig's Comment: In my experience, a very effective signal
is to simply glance at a girl that you run across regularly whenever
you run across her. It doesn't take much nerve to do this and you'll be
naturally inclined to do it anyway. If she finds you at all interesting,
it will have a similar effect to that described above, especially if you
are as devastatingly handsome as I am! :-) Of course, when the moment
of truth comes, you'll need to do more than just chicken out.]
From http://www.abrantes.com/etologiskinstitut/TheSilentLanguage.htm:
Sexual or romantic interested people frequently:
Keyword phrases: Frustrating shy guy, shy guy clues,
shy guys, shy introverted guys, understanding shy guys, signals shy guys
like you, shy body romantic signals, flirt, flirting behaviour/behavior,
shy people, mysterious, body language, how to tell if a girl is interested,
too shy, eye contact, opposite sex, pick up, love interest, date, dating,
starting relationship, single, singles, attraction signals.
>HDXQ27A@prodigy.com (Terry Aucoin) wrote:
>> I know " Girls want you to make the first move" my friends tell me, but
>>how do you know for sure they want to talk to you is there a certain sign
>>to look for????
> Hi, I thought you might want a woman's perspective so here goes.
>First, the reason women want you to make the first move is because its a
>risk, and its flattering to women that you're willing to take it. The
>most impressive thing to women is a man who is comfortable enough with
>himself to be able to take a risk and still be okay if rejected.
--
"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit
there." -- Will Rogers
Subject: Re: Lone Wolf
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:57:16 GMT
>Actually, I heard on some TV documentary that two thirds of the time, it is
>the woman who takes the lead in initiating contact. Of course, she doesn't
>do it directly; she uses subtle indirect signals of romantic interest. The
>1. Laugh: audible laugh, draws attention to herself.
>If you want a good indication that she is interested in you, look for some
>of these signals. Of course, some women are so flirtatious that they send
>out signals even if they aren't really interested. But, if you don't
Eric Praetzel, http://ece.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel
Subject: Re: Who knows how to swing?
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 11:31:15 -0600
2) I hate that show; it makes me want to vomit.
--
Eric Pepke
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Florida State University
pepke@scri.fsu.edu
Subject: Re: asked someone out; crash+burn
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 10:27:11 -0600
> 1) Get to know women as friends. I've had only guy friends my whole life.
> Why not get to know someone first before trying to rush things? After all,
> you're getting all worked over a glance, or a few nice hellos. For all you
> know, she could be Lizzie Borden. I've heard that lasting relationships are
> based on friendships. If you can't be friends with a woman, how can you be
> more? I don't know, I don't have the experience here. I've also heard that
> couples who have a similar sense of humor last longer.
--
Eric Pepke
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Florida State University
pepke@scri.fsu.edu
Subject: Re: Body language/ signals/ clues for the cluless
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:24:05 -0600
> I've read a couple of the reccommended books (namely "Guerrila Dating
> tactics" and "Body Language" and I was wondering if there are any
> books that go into more detail on the flirting behavior thing ("Body
> language" seems to have some good stuff, but dosen't go into depth on
> this aspect, and was written way back in 1970. By now perhaps
> something more detailed has shown up?)
Meeting your eyes and then looking downward, touching the ear or
earlobe, playing with the hair, stroking the thigh or a glass.
Meeting your eyes and then looking to the side, touching the nose, tossing
the hair, holding hard on to something.
> I've been trying to pay attention, and notice all the little "clues"
> that people give out, but have still seem to run into dismal failure
> when I try to approach a woman. Obviously there is something major
> that I am missing.
> However, when at these functions, I feel like I can't get the
> time of day from anyone. It is really frustrating to hear afterwards
> that there were oportunities slipping by that I was unaware of. They
> seem to talk *about* me, never *to* me. I need to know how to pick up
> on this when it is happening.
> However, the big
> problem here is that they were in fact one night stands. Women who
> never tried to get to know me, and which I didn't have much contact
> with afterwards.
--
Eric Pepke
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Florida State University
pepke@scri.fsu.edu
From: blj@clark.net (Barry Johnson)
Subject: Re: Another whiny story from a LJBF-ee...
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:08:44 GMT
>As someone who is currently struggling with a friendship vs
>something-more situation, let me response from a female p.o.v.-
>
>lundy@bnr.ca (Steve Lundy) wrote:
>
>>Offering her something positive is a pretty vague term. It
>>could mean several things, but mostly it means the man has to
>>offer the woman she either could like or enjoy. It's about
>>proving that you are worth her attention.
>
>How about just being yourself???
>>The part I have to take exception to is the part about being
>>direct. NEVER, in the beginning, EVER be direct. If you come
>>straight out and tell the woman your feelings BEFORE she has
>>a chance to discover her attraction to you, she will run.
>
>OK here's my perspective. I met this guy about 2 months ago. We hit it
>off very very well in a friendly way. He bought me a sweet and
>thoughtful friendly gift after I had minor surgery. It was friendly
>but I was very charmed by it. We talked all the time and had fun.
>Finally he said he thought he we could be more than friends maybe.
>At the time he said that, I was pretty charmed by him and spoke my
>mind: I didn't know if we could or not but I was willing to keep an
>open mind. I honestly *didn't know* him well enough to say yes or no.
>I probably made a mistake by responding verbally..but what could I do?
>I felt put on the spot.
>
>Unfortunately he has not stopped talking about his feelings for me, and
>my silence on this issue has not gotten the message across that it's
>getting harder for me to be charmed by him when all he does is talk
>about his feelings for me. At this point I'm still interested in him
>but the interest level is much less than it was and this has happened
>quite suddenly. I just wish he would stop talking about his feelings
>for me. For one thing I don't think he knows me well enough for them
>to be real. For another thing his talk is getting in the way of my
>getting to know him better.
>
>However unlike many people I do not see the situation as unsalvageable.
>Obviously there was something I found charming about him or else I
>wouldn't have felt that way after knowing him for 2 months. I am trying
>hard to be patient and to wait until he cools down. I have no other
>guys waiting in the wings, but I am not sure I want to be this guy's
>girlfriend right now because I think he needs a friend more than a
>girlfriend.
>
>It's very frustrating to read this newsgroup and see so many guys acting
>like it's all the woman's fault if they get LJBF'd. Why do you guys
>insist on telling the woman your feelings. How about showing them
>(within reason!) It's obviously a question of impatience rather than
>not knowing how. The guy I know really charmed me by his thoughtful
>gift and not a "romantic" word was spoken. People fall in love, they
>do not discuss things and decide they are in love.
>To me it seems kind of a selfish impulse (though I do not blame people
>with inexperience) to think you can just circumvent action through
>words, trying to control
>the situation by putting the woman on the spot. That's what it
>*feels* like anyway, even if you don't mean it that way.
>>Flirtation, Suduction, and even Romance are all about
>>finding alternate ways of expressing your interest and feelings.
>>If it wasn't necessary, we wouldn't do it. Just as in the
>>act of sex itself, it takes women longer to build up the passion,
>>it takes more consideration and subtle infulences to sway a
>>woman's emotions into a romantic relationship, than saying
>>"Hey, I'm in love with you. Let's get together."
>
>Thank you for understanding! However this works both ways, this is not
>some special "woman" thing. It only seems that way because men are
>traditionally the more forward. It can work both ways.
>
>>That means, if there is a woman that you are interested in,
>>you have to use the INDIRECT methods of flirtation, suduction
>>and romance in order to win her feelings. (ie. create chemistry)
>
>Well, now I am in a position where I might seem like I am going back
>on my "word" (although the only signal I thought I gave was..."OK...
>continue trying to impress me and we'll see.") I think this guy is
>doing this because he's inexperienced and maybe insecure, but it
>doesn't turn me completely off him as a potential love interest. But
>the emphasis is now decidedly on POTENTIAL - I just have
>lost some of the interest I had, why, I don't know, he's still a
>wonderful person...but now I think he's going to have to work harder
>to charm me once again.
>I'll keep an open mind, but it's going to
>be somewhat harder now. The process has been derailed. I don't
>believe, as so many do, that there is *no* hope now, but the ball is
>in *his* court not mine. I don't think the charm can never be
>rekindled, but I'm not going to wait and hope...if it does, I'll let
>myself be pleasantly surprised and I will try to forget this stage
>of our relationship.
>
>I feel kind of sad because I was having
>fun, now the fun is all over at least for the time being. I still
>care for the guy, but I feel the need to spend some time away from
>him right now...I feel it would be good for him as well as me...maybe in
>the future we'll see.
>
>Additional thought--- I think some men hate the idea of LJBF because
>they always assume the woman really wants to run off and look for
>someone else and that this is just a nice lie the woman is telling
>them. Did it ever occur to you that maybe she just doesn't want to
>date *anybody*. It happens. Would you rather have the woman scream,
>"No, I hate you, go away and never bother me again?" Why is LJBF
>considered the kiss of death. Sometimes it just means, "Let's just be
>friends while you figure out how to charm me again, as I work on
>forgetting how you scared me off with your directness."
>Friends talk, but lovers do.
>just my .02
Life's a bitch named Monogamy.
You only get one..
--Ras Kass, "Reelishymn"
blj@clark.net
From: thomasws@ix.netcom.com (thom95 )
Subject: Re: Another whiny story from a LJBF-ee.
(Why guys become GAME PLAYERS)
Date: 10 Oct 1996 03:49:54 GMT
>As someone who is currently struggling with a friendship vs
>something-more situation, let me response from a female p.o.v.-
>[...]
>about his feelings for me. At this point I'm still interested in him
>but the interest level is much less than it was and this has happened
>quite suddenly.
>Obviously there was something I found charming about him or else I
>wouldn't have felt that way after knowing him for 2 months. I am trying
>hard to be patient and to wait until he cools down. I have no other
>guys waiting in the wings, but I am not sure I want to be this guy's
>girlfriend right now because I think he needs a friend more than a
>girlfriend.
>It's very frustrating to read this newsgroup and see so many guys acting
>like it's all the woman's fault if they get LJBF'd. Why do you guys
>insist on telling the woman your feelings.
>I'll keep an open mind, but it's going to
>be somewhat harder now. The process has been derailed. I don't
>believe, as so many do, that there is *no* hope now, but the ball is
>in *his* court not mine.
>I don't think the charm can never be
>rekindled, but I'm not going to wait and hope...
>I feel kind of sad because I was having
>fun, now the fun is all over at least for the time being. I still
>care for the guy, but I feel the need to spend some time away from
>him right now...I feel it would be good for him as well as me...maybe in
>the future we'll see.
From: memslie@midway.uchicago.edu (Maei)
Subject: Re: Another whiny story from a LJBF-ee.
(Why guys become GAME PLAYERS)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 04:22:16 GMT
From: pepke@scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Subject: Re: Another whiny story from a LJBF-ee.
(Why guys become GAME PLAYERS)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:20:20 -0600
> So if he pretended that you really didn't matter to him, you'd like
> him better?
--
Eric Pepke
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Florida State University
pepke@scri.fsu.edu
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:38:01 -0600
> I just had a thought that you guys have probably known for ages, but it just
> occurred to me... since a shy guy would (presumably) prefer to be approached
> than to do the approaching themselves... Do you give out signals to women to
> approach you? What are they? I'm dying to know.
Matthew
Subject: Re: questions
Date: 31 Oct 1996 09:08:24 GMT
>In article <556r4e$2n9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, mattlosang@aol.com
>(Mattlosang) wrote:
>>
>> An excellent question. Usually we kind of "hang around" the woman,
>> talking to them every once and a while, trying not to seem too pushy but
>> at the same time trying to get noticed. This almost never works -- you
>> can see that this makes us look like creeps.
>> Unfortunately, us shy guys have difficulty going further. Usually it's
>> either a) obvious after a while that the woman doesn't like me very much
>> --i.e she basically avoids me, or b) she is somewhat friendly but its
>> basically impossible to tell if she would ever go on a date with me. So I
>> never ask. By the way, the times I have asked I've gotten shot down very
>> quickly (i.e. "why did you ever think I was interested in you?")
>Boy, Matt is right on here....
>
>The easiest way to tell is if you know a little about the guy, or know
>someone who knows him. If you are armed with the knowledge that he is shy.
>Then you're set. If he goes to the trouble to talk to you - he's
>interested - period. Most shy guys I've ever come across are not much for
>idle conversation. They would rather just say nothing at all. Hence the
>misconception that a guy is "stuck-up" when he is really just too shy to
>attempt a conversation.
>Personally, I tend to be almost annoyingly visible, even though I might
>not say much. If you are wondering why that quiet guy seems to be around
>every time you look over your shoulder - strike up a conversation with
>him, because he's interested. I will occasionally try the painful process
>of striking up a conversation. If I get short responses that aren't
>conducive to a "real" conversation, I tend to give up rather quickly.
>Now would you be so kind as to tell me how to tell when a girl is
>interested? I tend to live my world in the (b) section that Matt talked
>about. As I stated in another thread, I am body-language impaired.
Darla
Subject: Re: The cutest girl in the world...
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 14:19:15 -0800
> > What to say:
> >
> > - "I'm thinking of going to X on Friday, wanna come?"
> > Alternate (If the above is too difficult): "My friends and I are
> > going to X on Friday, wanna come?"
> >
> > *** A relaxed, almost nonchalant attitude is crucial at this point. You
> > do want to convey the fact that you like her, but nonverbally. Smile and
> > make eye contact as you do the asking.
>
> So THAT'S what I'm doing wrong?? You mean you're not supposed to stand
> there: palms sweating, hands shaking, voice quivering, and say, "I've been
> trying to get up the courage to do this for months. Would you like to go
> out with me?"
>
> You mean that doesn't work? No wonder I've had one yes and about 10 no's
> in my life. :)
> Come to think of it, the one yes I got was probably the most non-chalant I
> have ever been. I wish I could remember how I did it.
> One question. Saying you are "going to X friday night, wanna come?" Won't
> that turn a lady off, wondering why you are going someplace alone?
> By reading these posts, and doing a little pondering, I'm discovering that
> my shyness affects only one part of my life: initiating contact and
> conversation. On the rare times I have been able to do it, there is no
> shyness, and people seem to like being around me. But when I can't do it,
> I have to believe that I am giving off vibes that say, "I don't know what
> to say, so don't try to start a conversation with me."
>
> How about it? Anybody out there believe that shy folks give off a kind of
> "avoidant" energy, that pushes others away without either party realizing
> it?
From: "Cass"
From: spud@zoomnet.SPAMSUCKSnet (Josh Whitt)
Newsgroups: alt.support.shyness
Subject: Re: positive signs of attraction
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:44:23 GMT
On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:35:27 GMT, obroadway@cix.co.uk (Oliver
Broadway) wrote:
>> Not that I'm the master of this, but here's my rule: The first date is
>> always platonic until you get to her door.
>What if you live in a big city like London, and you meet in the centre
>for your date, and then are both going in opposite directions to get
>home at the end of the evening?
Then you find out when you get to your 'diverging point'. The "rules
of the door" apply here; most women (well, none of them that I've met)
don't mind being kissed in public by the guy they're attracted to.
Just don't go overboard with it.
>What if you drive her home, when the
>crucial moment takes place in the car?
Then it's platonic til you stop the car. If she opens her door
immediately and says goodbye while leaning into the car, you're in a
platonic situation. If she sits and talks for a minute before going
in, it's probably romantic.
>> If she positions herself close enough that she
>> has to look up at you, then she definitely wants you to kiss her
>What if she's the same height as you (or taller)?
The physical proximity is the key. I once dated a girl who was taller
than me in heels (I'm almost 6'2", she was 6' in socks) and she would
stand within 12", the classic 'personal space invasion'.
I'm just talking about loose definitions, the original post would have
been 500 lines long if I had included every possible situation that
could occur at the end of a date. The problem is that there are no
100% positive signs of attraction. Even the body language rules like
touching hair and etc. may be false with some women. Shy people like
us tend to look for 'sure things,' so that we don't have to take the
chance on losing what little pride we have. This is a hard line of
thinking to get out of, and I wish I could say I am out of it, but I
have a g/f and I don't need to get out of it at the present time. In
fact, before we started dating she was another sure thing (I'd known
her for 3 years before we started dating in July), which almost turned
me completely off, because I recognized this pattern in myself some
time last year and I didn't want the next girl I dated to be a
'guarantee'. I felt that if I went for someone that I didn't already
know my standing with, it would bring me more self-respect knowing
that I took the chance and possibly still came out winning.
In the end, though, I'm glad the guarantee aspects of it didn't turn
me off, she's the best thing that's ever happened to me in at least 50
ways. I'm not saying this to gloat, but I was like Billy Shears and
Stewart and all of you "I don't date because I respect women" guys not
too damn long ago. Bitching about who you are doesn't make you
attractive. You're not going to change who you are, and that's the
best attitude you can have. It may even be that you don't enjoy doing
the things most people do, and that's respectable also. I enjoy
playing computer games, writing, programming, the net, and little
else. We all know the social stereotype of the computer geek. But,
it makes no difference if you're happy because you just broke the
real-world track record at Milwaukee in Nascar 2 (yeah, I did this,
with a joystick, no less, I'm proud), or if you're happy because you
just landed a million-dollar contract with IBM, you're STILL HAPPY.
People don't care about why you're happy when they take an impression
of you. If you're truly not enjoying what you do in your spare time,
try doing something else. If you go back to what you were doing
before, it's clear that that's what makes you happy. And being happy
with who you are and what you do is the key to being attractive. The
rest of it's really easy after that.
- JTW
From: obroadway@cix.co.uk (Oliver Broadway)
Newsgroups: alt.support.shyness
Subject: Re: positive signs of attraction
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:04:18 GMT
I had reason to apply "the rules of the door" tonight (but not to a
situtation I myself was involved in, more's the pity). A friend went on
a first date (his first for quite a while), and I phoned him afterwards
to see how it went; he said, he went for the hug rather than the kiss at
the end of the evening (they parted at a tube station). I remembered
what I'd read here, and asked him how close did she stand to him when
they said goodbye (he said really close - about 2 inches!) and while she
was standing that close, was there a period when she didn't say anything
(there was more than one such period). I told him he should have gone
for the kiss. At that moment my housemate came in, and I asked her to
support my case, that standing really close and saying nothing meant she
wanted him to kiss her, and my housemate (by way of a joke) did
precisely that to me, before saying "you mean, like this?" The weird
thing was - although we have an entirely platonic relationship, and I
don't fancy her, when she stood really close to me like that, I really
felt like kissing her. So yes, I think that's a pretty clear sign.
Anyway, I told him the next time they go out he should give her a peck
at the *start* of the date, just by way of saying hello - then he'll
have established a precedent, so he can move in for a kiss at the end of
the evening and then play it by ear whether to just make it another peck
or something longer... was this good advice? What the hell would I know?
Anyhow, my housemate says it was.
Ollie
From: PMetcalfe@NO_TINNED_MEAT_HERE.drystone.demon.co.uk (Peter Metcalfe)
Newsgroups: alt.support.shyness
Subject: Re: Trying to hide behind something, was Re: Glasses...
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:27:00 GMT
On 15 Nov 1997 16:51:52 GMT, "Cass"
From: struelle@unixg.ubc.ca (Steve Ruelle)
Newsgroups: alt.support.shyness
Subject: More than Words Can Say: Part 1 - Eye Contact
Date: 15 Dec 1997 09:17:23 GMT
I] INTRODUCTION
Hi, posters and lurkers of alt.support.shyness. My name's Steve Ruelle,
I've been a semi-regular poster on this newsgroup, churning out around 30
posts or so a year for 2 years, and an avid reader of all posts here.
/suck-up mode on
Of all the newsgroups I've been on, this one has, BY FAR, the most
well-written posts and genuine audience. You guys rock.
/suck-up mode off
In appreciation of all the knowledge I've gained from this newsgroup in
my own challenge of overcoming shyness (which, by the way, has improved
markedly recently) and all the great stories I've read here, I thought
I'd make a contribution to the newsgroup in return. It is Christmas
after all :-) In doing some research on shyness, social phobia,
nonverbal communication, and NLP, I came across some really great
material which I thought'd be helpful. Topics like eye contact,
conversations, cognitive patterns, avoidance behaviour, and such
frequently show up here. I've decided to start a series of posts which
will hopefully shed some more light on these issues and encourage people
to apply some of the knowledge and advice to their lives. By the way,
I'm no expert psychologist, just your average shy Joe offering my
opinions (which are backed up with citations, of course). I don't really
expect any replies to these posts, the reason being that the material is
mainly aimed at the lurkers of this newsgroup, however replies are
welcome. That said, a quick description of my life: 20 years old,
attending school at University of B.C., working part time as a cashier,
stuck in trying to choose a career, 7 previous jobs, 1 girlfriend, and I
like to ski and play guitar.
II] OVERVIEW OF BODY LANGUAGE
As the title of the post suggests, there is so much more to human
communication than just words. If we were to *only* express ourselves
with verbal language in everyday life, it would really be quite dull.
Little variety would exist in the flavour of our communications. We'd be
like robots, in other words. That's why we have body language to rely on
in the real world. It is perhaps "the most fundamental and subtle of all
human languages" [Michael Argyle & Peter Trower, "Person to Person Ways
of Communicating", Harper & Row 1979].
It would take literally gigabytes of Usenet bandwidth to even begin to
explain every aspect of body language which we, as humans, have at our
disposal. To begin though, each culture has a slightly (and sometimes
vastly) different demand and expectation as to which nonverbal behaviours
have significance, and this significance is constantly evolving with the
given culture. Also, body language can be broken down into an almost
infinite amount of components, each one interlinked with the other.
Basically, body language is extremely complex, and it is this complexity
which gives it a human quality.
With this in mind, realize that when I discuss eye contact, it'll be
largely reflected in a relatively present North American view. I encourage
you, however, to look beyond this context and realize that eye contact styles
vary across cultures and throughout history.
III] EYE CONTACT
On to the main bulk of the post. Eye contact. It sounds so simple, you
just make contact with another person's eyes in a conversation, right?
No. Far from it. Eye contact is perhaps the most intense form of
nonverbal communication. The eyes are like the control center for the
rest of our body language "for the eyes are what we use to meet the world
head-on" [Gordon Allport, as cited in Argyle & Trower, p. 9]. To make
sense, and to control this intense form of nonverbal communication, we
need some rules: rules that govern the use of our eyes in communication
in order to instill some social order. These rules are not set in
stone, and are considered implicit social norms. Every culture has
different rules; although there are implicit they are nontheless very
important. Some flexibility is permitted within the rules, but one
thing remains clear: If you overtly break the rules, you pay the price.
The following rules are my interpretations based on reading Argyle &
Trower's book and my own experiences. Each of you may have your own set
of rules which may differ from mine, after all everyone perceives the
world differently.
Rule #1 - When communicating, look the person who is speaking to you
straight in the eye. Do so in a way to "take in as much information as
possible and as a courtesy to that person to show that you are interested
in what they are communicating to you". Avoid long, piercing stares (> 5
seconds, in my opinion) as this most likely causes the speaker to feel
uncomfortable. Also, refrain from avoiding eye contact completely; this
implies deceit and boredom on the listener's part. [Argyle & Trower p. 12]
Rule #2 - When you assume the role of speaker in a conversation, make
less eye contact as you would is you were the listener (but still make
eye contact). Use more gestures and movement as the conversational ball
is in your court.
Rule #3 - Try and match eye contact with the person you are communicating
with. This is a very effective way to gain rapport with that person.
Focus your attention on the other person so as to look for cues as to
when to make eye contact and when not to. For example, the person you
are talking to may be looking straight ahead and then you may notice
him/her turn his/her head towards you. Then, you would turn your head
towards that person to match the eye contact. After observing the other
person for a short while, you get a feel for their body language and it
becomes easier to build rapport.
Rule #4 - Okay, this is one I feel very strongly about. Never look at the
ground when someone is talking to you. This is communicating total
disinterest to the other person. Keep your eyes off the damn ground!
Rule #5 - A natural smile goes very well with your eye contact :-). It
relieves some of the tension in the conversation and helps build
self-confidence. Remember the more experience you have with eye contact
the easier it gets.
A few cultural variations on acceptable levels of eye contact before it
is considered staring. "Southern Europeans prefer much more lengthy
levels of eye contact that Northern Europeans and Americans. The English
feel uncomfortable with the Italians' overly long eye contact and the
Italians think the English cold for the reverse reason." [Argyle &
Trower, p. 13].
With shyness, part of the difficulty in making effective effective eye
contact, is that shy people feel much too self-conscious to focus their
attention on the other person and notice social cues. This leads to
uncomfortable conversations (for both parties, a lose-lose situation)
which leads to having less experience at making eye contact, which leads
to more self-consciousness. The cycle is very viscious. As Trent Reznor
would put it, it's a "downward spiral".
My advice, part and parcel to my experiences in breaking this viscious
cycle, is to try something different, apart from the self-consciousness
bit. According to many studies in cognitive psychology, the conscious
mind is only capable of storing 7 +/- 2 items at any given instant. As
there are literally hundreds of simultaneous nonverbal behaviours going
on with the human body, trying to be conscious of them all is a waste of
resources. It's not efficient. For instance, when I am self-conscious I
usually focus on my 1) breathing 2) eye contact 3) neck movements 4)
neck tension 5) posture 6) gestures 7) hand position 8) tone of
voice 9) whether of not I'm smiling 10) tension in my stomach 11)
whether or not I'm stuttering ... as you can see we're way past 7 items,
the limit of our conscious mind's holding capacity. So why bother doing
this? Even if we were able to control our body language through
self-consciousness to evoke a positive evaluation (which I believe is the
major motive for exhibiting self-conscious behaviour) we could only
control 7 components of it, a small fraction of the stream of nonverbal
signals we would be sending out unconsciously. I'll be posting more details
about this in a later post, but let's look at eye contact specifically. (I do
have a tendency to ramble :-).
As a result of this self-consciousness, paradoxically, shy people end up
unconsciously avoid eye contact (because they feel they can't do it) or
they end up staring at the other person (because they feel they have to
look them in the eye). A solution to this, is to FOCUS MORE ATTENTION ON
THE OTHER PERSON THAN YOURSELF. Observe the other person's body
movements and try to match your eye contact with theirs when they look at
you. Pay attention to them. While talking, make gestures, smile, and
notice how the listener matches what you're doing. It's very likely
you'll end up uneasy in conversations, despite this advice. Fuck, I do
it all the time, however I have an ace up my sleeve; there are ways to
regain confidence when uncomfortability occurs.
While uneasy, please, please PLEASE DON'T LOOK AT THE GROUND!! Doing
this may feel like an easy way out of the situation, but it communicates
totally bad signals to the other person. There are some contexts where
looking at the ground is appropriate (dipping for change in a cash
register, trying to navigate tricky footing, or looking for items you may
have dropped) but face-to-face communication is not one of them. Try
looking at the other person's mouth or glance off to the side, while
keeping your chin up. Don't overdo this though, just enough to feel
comfortable again. Also, relax and *breathe* (quietly of course!). A
relaxed body posture will make others feel more at ease. It works
wonders just to *relax* as I've discovered. If people have every told
you stuff like "Loosen up!" , "Don't be so tense!" , "Relax!", they're not
spewing off a bunch of bullshit, they have a good point. When people
told me this, I at first dismissed it as a bunch of crap coming from
extroverts, but then I realized at how silly this notion was. Obviously,
a relaxed 'at-ease' body posture is efficient for successful
communication regardless of whether you're introverted or extroverted.
If there are many people using this posture in conversations, and it's
getting them positive results, then why not try it? The people telling
me to loosen up were doing me a *favour*, and I'm only beginning to
realize it now.
Well, I digress. I'll be discussing posture in more detail in part 2 of
this series, and how powerful the results can be in communication if you
use the proper posture.
Steve.
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